question regarding "form is emptiness, emptiness is form"

ironoxideman SG

In buddhism it is said that "all forms are emptiness and emptiness is form", which refers to the illusory nature of feelings, consciousness, all things in life and the universe. Life is like a dream, so to speak.

From this, I have a thought that I cannot shake off, which is this: Even if life is a dream, it is a dream that I cannot choose to wake up from. I still have to experience joy and suffering which will continue to affect me even if I think that they are illusory. So what difference does it make if I am aware that life and existence is ultimately illusory?

sinweiy SG

i think if you still feel suffering and joy, that mean you have not really break through that life and existence are ultimately illusory. you just know the idea/concept/theory only.

that mean you just know that honey is sweet, but have not really tasted the honey.

you know existence are ultimately illusory, i.e. forms are emptiness, but yet to know emptiness is also form, illusory are also existence.

illusory are Mahayana expression, but the simple hinayana expression is that existence are impermanence and it keep on changing hence it's like a "dream" like a TV show. one time u can be the hero, and the next u can be the villian, u can be acting like a girl, and the next a boy etc. if u can live with it, and not get attached to it, you wouldn't feel suffering and joy. as it's just an act. :)

good question though!

An Eternal Now SG

Yes... intellectual realization is very different from direct experiential realization as described by Thusness: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.sg/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html

Why? Intellectually accepting a doctrine of emptiness still does not overcome the "gut level feeling" that "I exist and the world exists". This is a deeply rooted conditioning that cannot be removed by mere concepts and intellect.

However, direct experiential realization will remove that on an experiential level, that "gut level sense that I am" is also removed.

The result is the overcoming of emotional afflictions - craving, aggression, delusion, fear, pride, jealousy, etc etc, and all manners of mental suffering including sorrow, etc. Very big difference.

ironoxideman SG

thnks for the replies guys

Steveyboy SG

Hi ironoxideman,

Hope you don't mind me explaining my answer to this question. My Dharma teacher explained to me that emptiness of inherent existence can be related in this manner. All of us cling to labels and projections we place upon ourselves and others. For example, we label a table a table because it fits the description of a table, it has a top and it has legs.

However, to a baby or a person who had never seen a table before, it could be a chair or it could be something to chew on. No one is wrong here because in our own perception, it is what we label it to be. This does not need to be restricted to just inanimate objects but it can also be used to explain how we perceive people or how we view a particular situation in life. My teacher tells me that this grasping to projections leads us to suffer and commit more negative karma with or without us knowing.

This level of understanding of emptiness is on the lowest level and the highest would be to perceive all reality as empty of inherent existence. Emptiness is just an english word, it does mean nothingness. Perhaps, the Chinese word would better explain this term. The highest realization or direct perception of emptiness can only be attained via purification of vast amounts of karma, accumulation of vast amount of merits and finally, meditation. It is only through meditation, that the Buddha along with many great Buddhist masters of the past attained this realization.

An Eternal Now SG

In Buddhism, in order to be a Buddha, one must have true renunciation, followed by realization of Bodhichitta and finally realization and direct perception of emptiness. With these 3, one has attained full enlightenment.

I'd say that would equate to 1st bhumi.... not yet Buddhahood which requires "accumulation of vast amount of merits and finally, meditation" as you said.

Steveyboy SG

@An Eternal Now

Not so. I read up on the first Bhumi and it is characterized by direct perception of emptiness but there's no mention of Bodhichitta. I would assume that renunciation is a given. By the way, to attain direct perception of emptiness requires the accumulation of vast amounts of merits. This is direct perception and not intellectual understanding of emptiness. In the Tibetan monastery, the most advance classes on emptiness have very few students because many do not have the merits to sustain the learning alone and this is not even the practice to gain this direct perception yet.

Hence, many monks engage in extensive prostrations outside the prayer halls deep into the night to accumulate the necessary merits. It is said that when one has the merits, one could be in the middle of the debate of emptiness and one can gain realization. There's a Tibetan teacher called Geshe Rabten that was a pure monk and was excellent in debates. He was very diligent in his practice that he gained direct realization of emptiness in the middle of the debate. He sat there in the debate hall till dawn. He became an unmatched scholar and master of Buddhism. He passed away with full control and his incarnation is right now in Switzerland teaching

An Eternal Now SG

Yes of course, I am aware that direct realization of emptiness is far different from mere intellectual understanding.

If by Bodhicitta you mean the relative bodhicitta of giving rise to aspiration towards Buddhahood and having compassionate vows of bodhisattva for all beings etc, then that should actually be the prerequisite of even a 0 bhumi bodhisattva... as there cannot be a bodhisattva without bodhicitta, not even one on the pre-bhumi stages of the path.

If you mean Absolute bodhicitta as the wisdom of emptiness, then, a first bhumi bodhisattva having direct realization of twofold emptiness would certainly be one who had direct experience of bodhicitta. Yet, it does not mean that he has eliminated all emotional and knowledge obscurations, nor does it mean he has accomplished all the perfections or paramitas (these are progressively attained through the varying stages of bhumi). For example, each stage of bhumi accomplishes one of the ten perfections, also, afflictive obscurations are completely removed at 8th bhumi and knowledge obscurations at 10th, whereby the obscurations preventing omniscience are released.

Basically as Loppon Namdrol said: When a bodhisattva realizes the first bhumi, there is no more emptiness to realize, all that is left to do is to complete the two accumulations, as I told you, the ten stages only map qualities, not realization.